What do you think about HBO Spitfire Results?

Yes I can quite believe it.

It only happened on one of my videos. It was way back when I didn’t have a studio or any recording gear. All I had was a 1080p Sony camcorder I had saved up for in my job (which was terrible pay as I was 17).

Myself and my friend Rhi decided to do a cover of a song and she picked the key. The key was extremely high for me so I had to belt it out to hit the notes. On top of that, Rhi was nervous so she wanted to sit slightly behind me. The comments were horrible and slanderous because through the camera microphone I was quite a lot louder than she was in parts where my range was higher. It didn’t matter what I said, they just kept commenting on that, with one or two PMs with death threats which I didn’t make public.

The annoying thing was I agreed with the fundamental argument that o was a bit loud… but people were so horrible! Vile infact.

I deleted most of the really bad comments… or rather reported them and they got took down. Looking back I had very thin skin and that level all at once was far too much to handle.

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YouTube has improved a lot the last years in the nasty comments ratio. A couple of years ago Pewdiepie turned OFF comments because they became too mean, and YouTube felt forced to fix issues.

PS. For the record, this is why this community has a rule to show at least your first real name. I want the “friends/family” atmosphere. Not hidden behind an alias.

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Yes that makes a lot of sense. I think youtube needs to evolve soon. They are just regurgitating the same algrhythms with a new skin so non of these issues are trippy being fixed. They’re still there just in lesser degrees.

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haha psychopaths.

There was a 7 million viewed video in just 4 days of two doctors sharing scientific research and data of case studies they made regarding coronavirus. They removed the video and after backlash they said it was because it does not align with what is being said by experts , although it does today but it still doesn’t match what news media is saying. Youtube said they keep only factual videos up, I find that response to be very double standard, most of youtube content is opinion based and not overseen by any fact checking or oversight approval. When logical and sound information backed by doctors who have medical centers all around the state get censored, while the other controversial youtube videos and negative content remains, we should remember that at the end of the day the news comes from us, we have to research it instead of one source of media telling making the decision for us.

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Here is another Point of View:

Alex is explaining very well, how genious the winning track is and with some temporal distance of the release date now, it becomes clearer to me, why this track was able to win.

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DAMN GREAT FIRST TRY DUDE!
Mine was in 1989,
You got like 65% of it all, which is stunning.
You know interior vs exterior. That’s huge.
Within a year or two you will be kicking ass and taking names.
Great work.

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Dear Thomas, Big Thank you for comment on my track. And your music knowledge is awesome. Your one word is 1000 times valuable for me. Keep in touch…

Many of the thoughts - on rejection and the cognitive dissonance between how we want things to be and how they are - are spot on, in my view. I suggest that the reasons this one won (haven’t watched it, didn’t enter, I have a job already), though speculated upon by many, are not the point.

The crucial, teaching-moment part of all of this is that in this contest and in professional composer life, you will likely never entirely know why something you are putting forth is not received as you would like. You can guess, you can second-guess yourself and look for flaws you missed, you can contemplate the prejudices or agenda or even lack of musical understanding of a judge or client - but in the end what someone else wants is to a degree inscrutable. And even if one is able to determine why someone chose as they did, that’s kind of like driving by looking in the rear-view mirror, isn’t it?

Clients want what they want. They are driven by the same things we are. Sometimes they are in bad moods. Sometimes they don’t know what they want and are uncomfortable about that. Sometimes they know more about music for picture than we do. Sometimes they don’t like your shirt, or your speaking voice, or they know you don’t get the material. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that they say yes or no. In that little universe, they write the laws of gravity. That’s really the end of the story. They choose you or they don’t. If they do, you go do your thing as best you can. If they don’t, then thank you very next.

In the case of contests like these - I said this elsewhere on the Spitfire users’ Facebook page, but statistics take over in cattle-calls (for those unfamiliar with the term, it refers to group evaluations of a multitude based on a generic “composer wanted” request, like when someone whistles and the entire herd of cattle comes thundering in.) 11,000 entries means that I can tell anyone who entered they lost and only be wrong once. From the point of view of all entrants, virtually nobody won. But oddly, people have a great emotional investment in that kind of outcome, and people are naturally biased about their own chances of being chosen. If one were a gambler and used that approach, one would be broke constantly. How does one improve their chances of being the one guppy in the tank that’s chosen? Is it to be the single red guppy in a tank full of blues? No, because statistically speaking it’s a certainty that other guppies will have thought of this too. And trying to be different is a minefield for every composer. (Nothing worse than becoming known for something that you don’t really want to do.).

There is only one way. Do not be in the tank.

The difference between cattle-calls and a good professional life is that nobody has a connection advantage in a cattle-call. Nobody gets the opportunity to establish any connection with the client. They tiredly flip through submissions, simplifying their criteria as they go, making snap judgements based on utterly irrelevant characteristics, internal biases doing a lot of the driving. People get dismissed based on a title, the spelling of their name, the screen cap for the video reference frame, and worse, gender, ethnicity and so on. Whereas in an ideal professional situation, though there may be others who want a job, maybe the client knows a composer, has heard of them, knows someone who has worked with them, knows their agent, or has happened upon them socially and has a good feeling about them.

This last is the most crucial. I have a long history of gigs that come from people I knew in college, or people who knew people I knew. So I had a way to connect to the person if we spoke. Someone learns a lot about you the moment they see you and hear you speak about people you have in common. Some of the things they learn are wrong, invariably - same for you - if you have ever began a relationship with someone that seems cool at the start but later it goes south, you understand.

Sometimes it’s just simple incompatibility with a client, sometimes it’s oil and water, and sometimes it’s that one or both of the people involved don’t know how to be in a relationship. But if it does work out, and you do connect, then that can be the start of a working relationship that is good for everyone. And I know we are all trying to make a living at this, but if that’s the sole focus, you may find yourself in a few years selling the gullible on chord changes and melodies in MIDI-file form to survive, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. And it’s also evil. But I digress.

It can also work out if you are thrown in cold (as the result of a cattle-call, or a sight-unseen referral) and have to develop a relationship on the spot. I have taken over gigs for friends and had to make connections with a client I had never met, and it’s doable, but it helps to be friendly, authentic, natural and even. I might have been some of those when it worked out. I can say I bonded with a guy in a studio lounge about why some people from northern regions in our country insist on putting beans in their chili recipes, and I have worked with him and his band for more than twenty years now. He made a decision based on how he felt about me in the moment, and here we are. But I should emphasize that those things are not only ungame-able, but you really don’t want to do that. If you are not yourself when you meet someone, then you will unpleasantly surprise them when you are yourself - and if you are both deeply committed to a project and then the client comes to believe you aren’t the person she thinks you are, stuff can fall apart. And by that I mean you can get any variant of the vague L.A. brush-off, or it can mean when it’s time to have cue sheets done that nobody is looking out for you. So when they say “be yourself”…

To return to the focus of this - group versus individual outcomes - it’s vaguely similar to the concept of quantum mechanics, where we have one set of rules for things that are above a certain size, and another for those that are below. An individual is statistically insignificant in a large group, and may even act differently as part of that group, but on their own there are new rules.

It’s the difference between a) sending something in blind and b) having a conversation with some guy in a Starbucks who happens to be a production designer about Afro-futurism and the art and music that comes out of it- and then the guy says, “you know, give me your number. There’s a director I know and he needs you. Like you are the only person I am recommending for this gig.”

The last point is related to that last sentence. The best kind of gig there is is the one where the job description has a picture of you next to it. My longest-running and favorite gigs are like that. They don’t want a younger me, a me who does more dubstep or a cheaper me. They want me. I mean, they’d be happier if I were cheaper, but that won’t keep things from happening. And the only way to make those kinds of gigs more likely is to avoid cattle-calls like the plague. Unless you have a clear advantage, in which case that’s not a cattle-call, is it? That’s a mock-cattle-call where the client has already made up their mind.

People make a lot out of the fact that the winner worked on an Abrams project years ago. Here’s the thing - that isn’t a crime or improper. Because if you have been reading along, that’s how opportunities happen. It may not mean that the winner would win - directors at Abrams’ level Do. Not. Care. if they have been in a room with someone years ago, if the product is not what they want. So first let’s throw that idea away. It’s the kind of thing that people who have never worked before would say. What it might mean - if he had even been aware of this fact - is that Abrams might have paid attention a little more than he did on the last fifty entries. And what it definitely means is that Abrams would have something to say to someone who is otherwise a stranger, out of a million strangers he meets every day of his life - if they are in a room together they can talk about folks they both knew on the project or what the winner learned from it or whatever - something that shows Abrams who this guy is, so that any project or referral from him might even enter the realm of possibility.

And that’s what it all comes down to, is that possibility. Piling event upon event that by themselves mean nothing but cumulatively increase the chances of some positive outcome. Going out for as many you-specific interactions as possible - because you could enter 11,000 11,000-entrant contests and never be any closer to winning, because none of the selection process can be influenced by you. But what you can control, in a largely indifferent world with a million variables, is what you do. You can make the best music possible, by whatever means you have. You can learn social skills. You can SHOW UP.

And a final thought - maybe one reason the guy who worked as an assistant in the film business won this over so many others is because he knows something about making scenes work that ten thousand people with a laptop and a dream don’t.

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Albeit relatively briefly I’ve been in A&R and, once you take out the last paragraph, I say very well done RFWD. The QM metaphor is right on.

Well, I’m glad you liked the rest of it. I do stand by that last paragraph, though. If we accept that skill and know-how, and not just the magical idea of the great undiscovered composer, plays a role in this, then it’s not unreasonable to say that. Because young composers might read that, I feel obligated not to try and sell them something unreasonable. I would be surprised if there were a professional composer at the level to which most folks aspire who would say that their best work was their early work or that they just knew what to do automatically. (I mean, someone trying to encourage some kind of person mystique might.). There is zero shame in having more to learn.

I see your intention, and that is right on the mark. That 10,000 hours thing isn’t wrong. That said, this particular “winning” track caused quite a bit of outrage among contestants and offhand observers alike as it doesn’t even reflect the mood of the series at all and is somewhat cartoonish. No music super would accept that track, let alone recommend to air it. So your statement is quite valid, this particular result is just a bad example.

To me, with respect, my point is exemplified right here. It doesn’t matter what anyone else (but the judges) thinks, regardless of their level of experience. Even being concerned with the winner or second-guessing the judges’ reasons or whether or not it would work out in a “real” situation counts as a loss. Because: it is a real situation, but not one anyone should spend time on except as a learning exercise. And for the total number of entrants minus one, the only things they learn about from it is “what would I do if asked?” and “what will happen when I don’t win it?” To me it’s one of the hardest things to learn to do as a composer - to not be attached to knowing ‘better’ than the client. Really, really hard. But necessary.

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I’m on Richards side. The judges are the ones who hold the cards. I actually think it’s very unprofessional to spit the dummy out st something like this. Often we don’t know why a track will or won’t be picked by a publisher, or even why another track that we might feel doesn’t fit brief is picked. But if we were to act in the same way I can hand on heartctell you that no one would want to work with yu. Which is why Zimmer responded in the way he did.

The act of being frustrated isn’t the issue. We all get frustrated with things like this… the act of verbally outing a group of judges is basically the same as the latter.

Having said this, out of the 11,000 people who entered the vast majority of them wouldn’t be professionals… or even well seasoned in working with others. So some of the outrage will be linked to this. So in that respect Zimmer was slightly harsh in his response.

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Where can I hear his response? YouTube? Article? Where can I find the source? :slight_smile:

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Here you go. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.musicradar.com/amp/news/spitfire-audios-westworld-scoring-competition-descends-into-bitterness-and-acrimony-as-hans-zimmer-says-of-winners-critics-i-wouldnt-want-to-work-with-a-single-one-of-you

It was originally posted on Twitter I think?

Is that really hz? If it is, then the “ouch” hurts twice at least

Yeah HZ really did say that. I can see why he said it but it’s a bit much id day… especially as people reacted this way mainly because they’re unseasoned and don’t have thick skin for rejection. And there’s a LOT of rejection you have to deal with.

Thats true. But it is not only in the music industry. I just developed a very genious software last week, and we had a very hard and long discussion with our customers if it should be used or not. It has been voted 3:2 against it. So there is that rejection topic again, and i have to deal with it.
I don’t know what age David’s enemies are, but David is a bit older than me, so he should be experienced enough to deal with rejection and “bad” comments. As I said before, i think nobody wants to blame him for his track. They are all unhappy that the judges picked a track that would never be used in the tv-series, and now he is the “epicenter”.

Most of the entries are people who 1.) have no clue how to compose for film (thinking that only because they have some orchestral libraries, they automatically became film music composers), or 2.) students (who think again, that they figured it out after studying music for two years…).

There were pro composers out there, who have experience in working with film, working in the industry, working with people. But even from 11k entry it’s maybe if at all 1%. And I believe that no one of them was entering for winning the super-surprise-price. It was more for fun, practice something else, and maybe getting the chance to be heard by the judges to gain a little extra attention. That’s it. These people dealt with rejections all their life’s. They know how it is in this industry. Students and all others have most likely no experience with it at all, or even if, they make drama after drama, as they were rejected the 2nd time in their life.

If those people would study successful people, who were rejected so many times in their careers, they would understand what it means to be successful in your mind. I understand that you will most likely never hear the winning track in those kind of project in real life, but it was a competition, it’s not real life, it’s just a simple game to give those people hope that they could be heard by famous people. Too many take it too seriously, too personal.

In my student years, I would go crazy and rant everywhere about that result. Today I see it from a totally different perspective. It really takes courage to accept a defeat, however, it doesn’t mean the life is over. It’s just a game. Continue playing the best you can. Period. Learn, implement, adapt, improve, start over again.

I am personally happy for David, even though his music doesn’t work for my perspective. But he won, so he did something right. It worked for him and for the judges. I can’t complain about the result, as I never saw this “competition” a competition for myself. Downloading, doing my best, showing to directors, showing my subs on YouTube so they can learn something from session. I am happy and I like it. That’s the whole story :slight_smile:

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