On that note, it’s not that I really mind a few rack units, apart from maybe for financial reasons. 
I really like the idea of using a standardized digital interface, so I can just replace the converters and preamps as needed, without having to take my chances with a new interface, new drivers, new mixer app etc.
The studio upgrade journey…it never ends. 
I have the RME UFX+ which has two connection options, USB3 and TB. The way RME describe it TB has a slightly lower CPU overhead over USB3.
As you may have seen from the low latency database on Gearslutz in practical terms the amount of plugins/instruments you can run between USB3 and TB is pretty low. I think I calculated a 5% difference at 256 buffer. Apparently this is partly because RME’s optimisation of the USB drivers are really good.
In my quest for better low latency playback I’ve found the interface and connection method does make a difference but not as much as a CPU upgrade. From the test results on GS I’m also not sure there is much of a difference between PCIE and TB (3-4%). Also with the PCIE cards you need to then buy your pre-amps and other I\O etc.
One advantage I’ve found with going TB over USB is that I’ve avoided the chipset issues I was having on USB, the UFX+ is pretty picky about the chipsets it will work with.
You do get a breakout cable with analog inputs and outputs at least on the RME I looked at, but yeah, those will of course not be near a pro grade AD/DA I guess. However, I work almost exclusively inside the box, so my main concern is super high relyability, low latency, and no pops/crackles due to the “queue” to access RAM/CPU as I’ve read that external audio interfaces will have more than internal PCIe ones.
Yes I think there’s some basic breakout IO but you’d need to add mic pres etc. You also miss out on things like a volume control, headphone controls, metering.
I know you could get it all separately but its starts to add up and for RME at least I can’t see a real benefit to doing it that way over TB, which is essentially PCIE anyway.
I might be looking at an overkill solution, but that’s probably because I am so sick and tired over all frustrations I’ve had with USB over the years! 
TB well, I need to connect and reconnect my second monitor almost every day on the back side of my iMac. My Lacie RAID external TB stopped starting until I switched it over to USB. So it’s apparently not bullet proof either.
I’m basically starting to “hate” all things external when it comes to computer devices I guess lol.
On a somewhat related note, I’ve decided to pick up digital art (as in, going beyond the occasional photo manipulations, pixel art and whatnot), and after some research, I dropped the idea of trying out some “reasonably priced” Chinese tablet, and just went directly for Wacom. Too many “fake” reviews and other warning signs around the clones, and in particular, complaints about dodgy drivers and poor support - and they’re not exactly cheap anyway…! Not worth the risk.
Anyway, as for external vs internal, my statistics are similar: Probably 90% or so of glitches, disconnects and the like have something to do with external devices. It’s starting too look like applications after memory protection became standard: Occasional application crashes became “acceptable,” because they no longer took the whole OS down. A disconnect a day is “good enough,” apparently…
As it turns out, I’m in the market for a new audio I/O solution right now, as my old Scarlett just won’t work properly anymore. (Either something happened with the hardware, or the drivers no longer work with Win10. Not wasting any more time on it.)
Considered a temporary replacement, but even the most basic non-USB options are just way too expensive for something that barely even covers my current needs.
Obvious choice is RME. I’m not taking chances with anything that gets complaints about drivers and software, which pretty much eliminates all competition. I also (obviously) want the best possible latency/CPU load ratio. Hardware mixer with ZLM and DSP effects is nice, but less critical with lower latency. Linux drivers is a bonus, as I’d rather not get another sound card + analog mixer just for that.
Now, it turns out the PCI. route gets really expensive, real quick. Minimum requirements for the rig; integrated, or individual devices:
It would of course be nice to have extra I/O, for piping 5.1 from a “consumer” soundcard through the mixer and stuff like that. Some MIDI I/O could come in handy to.
Most reasonable and seemingly solid option would be the RME Fireface UFX+. It has pretty much exactly what I need, and substantial expansion possibilities, though I’m a bit nervous about the Thunderbolt (also USB 3.0), rather than PCIe.
On the PCIe interface + converter/preamp side, you’re easily up to twice that money, as it’s all aimed at bigger studio rigs, with a few exceptions of dubious quality. Some options I’ve considered:
More research needed…
Interesting, so you started to warm up to the PCIe idea after all. 
However, I agree that if you have such requirements for I/O then it might be a harder choice for you compared to me that basically only need scarce inputs/outputs. I would imagine there are a lot of ADAT mixers or something on the used market though since it has been used for so many years?
Was there really only those 2 RME ADAT I/O devices that was interesting? Perhaps the choices are less than I thought?
(More ramblings… Options are nice and all, but, so much research! )
PCIe
Well, the thing is, the PCIe solutions aren’t really intended for this “small” scale, so we’re generally talking about 8 channel units, and mic preamps tend to be ADC only - no line outs. So, I’d need one PCIe card, and at least two rack units - and then I suddenly have several times more I/O than I need.
From that perspective, the entry level PCIe cards turn out to be a bit limited. In particular, the RayDAT variant does not have the DSP FX part - not even EQ. Probably no big deal for most DAW users, but annoying for me, as I’d like to use the hardware mixer as a surround monitor controller, rather than spending another fortune on that later.
Also, if you’re interested in high sample rates, note that ADAT can only handle 8 channels at 48 kHz, so at 88.2/96 kHz, you get 4 channels per ADAT port, and only two channels at 176.4/192 kHz.
On the “convenience” side, the integration stuff (controlling mic preamps from TotalMix etc) is only available with certain RME units. Not strictly essential, but I really appreciate being able to snapshot/recall and automate as much as possible, especially since I use this rig for basically everything computer related.
The MADI devices are superior on these accounts (more bandwidth, remote control via MIDI-over-MADI etc), but that’s a different price range again…
And, that explains the “limited” options for RME I/O as well: The bigger ones are MADI and/or AES/EBU (no ADAT), and also in the $2k-$4k price range. They have a bunch of smaller units, high-end headphone DACs and whatnot, though, so actually plenty of options if you’re looking for extra boxes to solve specific problem. I love having those options available for the future, but at this point, I just can’t afford to build the rig I want from units like those.
So, yeah… Definitely possible to build an incredible rig around PCIe, but I haven’t managed to come up with a setup that checks all the boxes, without also checking a bunch of extra boxes, including the “drain bank account” one.
Thunderbolt
All that considered, the RME Fireface UFX+, which I figured was a bit pricey at first, actually turns out to be an absolute bargain for what it is, and a perfect fit for my current needs, even covering headphones and mic preamps, MIDI etc, all properly integrated with the mixer. And for the future, 2xADAT and 2xMADI, which is pretty significant, considering what it would cost to add that through additional interfaces.
Bonus: The UFX+ can operate as a mic preamp, DAC, ADC, mixer, monitor controller, digital format converter, recorder/player, or any combination of those you can dream up - with or without a computer attached!
Now, it is Thunderbolt, but that is quite literally buffered hot-plug PCIe, and (unlike for USB), there is a strict certification process for interfaces, cables etc… Even RME is subject to the general flakiness of USB, but that shouldn’t be an issue with Thunderbolt.
Ah interesting indeed, and I know Thunderbolt is “supposed” to be outboard PCIe…I am still somewhat hesitant due to my issues with external devices overall. Which sadly has been the Apple route for years until the new Mac Pro finally turned 180 degrees on that aspect.
My Lacie Thunderbolt external Raid cabinet for example, it all of a sudden refuses to start up with Thunderbolt. And I’ve done major error searching on my computer, but can’t find anything wrong. Since the Drive chassi has Thunderbolt AND USB3, I switched to USB and now it starts and works normally.
I simply have less trust for external solutions if I can avoid it. But there is of course no avoiding it altogether.
I’d steer away from PCIe, also because you are tied to a PCIe enabled system when you choose this, so you can’t switch to a laptop or you have to go with an external PCIe chassis.
RME over USB or thunderbolt is rock solid and delivers the best bang for the buck. Their AD/DA conversion is more than enough for the average pro user, and combines with high end pre-amps and speakers, you’ll be OK for almost any application.
Can’t blame you! There is certainly a lot of this “good enough for consumers” mentality around all this. Memory protection, fault tolerant buses and whatnot are great and all, but they’re meant to deal safely with extremely rare glitches - not saving sloppy developers from going out of business.
Now, USB is what it is, but Thunderbolt and PCIe are not immune to poor implementations either. So, when it comes down to it, all we can do is do the research, check the reviews, and consider the track record of the people and companies involved.
Based on that, I’m willing to send my money to RME any time. And as for interface, I can’t really find anything that suggests that Thunderbolt would be worse than PCIe, and with their solutions, even USB3 is practically equivalent, provided your setup is solid. I don’t think the odds get better than that.
I don’t argue about quality or even speed. I agree with both of you here. I mainly am so fed up with external devices not turning on, or glitching just because of the external connection itself.
I mean have you ever had a PCIe card “loose connection”? I have with USB to the point of pulling my hair (if I had any), and even Thunderbolt (both my external drive, and my 2nd display).
Indeed; that’s what I’ve realized with the Fireface UFX+. Not just that it doesn’t depend on a computer with specifically PCIe, but also that it’s a stand-alone “I/O + DSP box” that you can configure to do all sorts of things, with or without a computer connected to it. It’s can be a central part of the studio, rather than just a computer peripheral.
Hello David, did you get the Fireface? If you did, I like to hear your opinions on it when you did some testing. It is quite an investment to say the least.
I’m afraid not! Was supposed to have arrived this week, and I see that Thomann received a few, so it seems like RME is shipping devices, at least. Asked for an update, but no response, and it’s been a busy week, so I didn’t get around to contact the seller by other means.
Hmm well I guess supply chains have been affected so perhaps no surprise there. After reading some more I have made my choice…I will go thunderbolt instead of PCI-e. It just does not seem to be any improvement on PCI-e, and the flexibility vanishes with computer mounted hardware compared to external rack mounts.
I am still not sure I “need” RME Fireface though. But they just have so damn good reputation on their drivers and implementation so we’ll see. I don’t need lots of connections, so for me, stability, reliability, low latency, minimal CPU overhead etc. is what I am after. Also, I think I am going for a rack, so rack mountable is a plus now.
Yeah, that’s pretty much my conclusion as well. They’re technically the same, buffering and hot-plug aside, and Thunderbolt itself should not present any issues you couldn’t also see with PCI-e. It all comes down to solid hardware and drivers, and a stable host machine with a healthy OS.
Well, the UFX+ is supposedly the flagship model, and it most likely has more digital I/O than I’ll ever need, but my requirements considered (4+ mic preamps, line ins for synths, enough channels for surround, hardware mixer with EQ etc), it still seems reasonable in my case.
One might get away cheaper with a smaller RME interface + external units, but it turns out some ADAT devices have buffering/latency issues, and I’d lose the mixer integration of the mic preamps and stuff like that, so I decided it’s not worth it to save a few $hundred.
Also, unless I’m missing something, the UFX+ is the only Thunderbolt interface at this point…? They have some smaller and/or older models, but they’re all USB or Firewire, it seems. :-/ The UCX would probably have worked fine for me, but it has only two mic preamps, and more importantly, only USB2 and FireWire 400.
Yeah it is their flagship model, but my other choice would be UAD Apollo Twin Duo. Mainly due to the added DSP and plugins. Not rack mount of course, and limited in I/O. But again, I don’t really need lots of I/O. So it might be a better choice for me, that is, if UAD is as stable in the driver department as RME. Did you consider UAD?